Episode 69
APMM Series: The Return of the Managers: Reckoning with the Pennsylvania Exception: A conversation with Municipal Managers who left Pennsylvania
In this powerful session from the APMM annual conference, three former Pennsylvania municipal managers—now working in other states—return to reflect on the structural and political challenges facing the profession in Pennsylvania. They explore what’s holding the profession back, including outdated laws, weak employment protections, fractured local governance, and lack of advocacy. Together with facilitator Dave Kratzer and the audience, they tackle tough questions: Can a manager be both neutral and political? What’s the real role of local government today? And who’s protecting the managers doing the work?
This candid, collegial, and at times gritty conversation is a wake-up call to local leaders—and a call to action for the next generation.
This is part of the 2025 APMM Series. Follow this podcast on your player to catch the next episode!
Quotes:
📍 A question that needs to be asked across the Commonwealth is, at its core, what is the role of local government? Almost all of us would probably agree. It's not really just to. Pave roads plow and, help take care of trash. As Dave said, the government of a right.
What do our constituents expect of us? These municipal codes that say what we can and can't do are oftentimes tying our hands, so I think there needs to be a conversation about what is the future of municipal government and how can laws be modified. - Eden Ratliff
📍 We just had a general session on ethics, and there were some really good hypotheticals that were introduced.
And I think we as a cohort can generally agree on the responses to some of those hypotheticals. But I'll tell you, as somebody speaking from personal experience when you're in them, it's a different ballgame. It's much more difficult to stick to the script and answer that way. - Dave Pribulka
📍 The problem in Pennsylvania is unlike all of the other employee groups, we don't really have anyone representing us. If we think it's PML, you're kidding yourself.
That's not a knock on PML. But if you think about who they represent the elected officials. They don't represent the managers. When the two align, they'll certainly back up. Just understand who they are really working for and who pays their bills. - Matt Candland
📍 If I had a magic wand, and I'm gonna, I'm just here offend all of you one way or another, but one of the change what I think would be one of the best ways to help the management profession in Pennsylvania is consolidation. - Matt Candland
📍 I think the reality is if you can manage here in Pennsylvania, you can manage anywhere. This is a state where the manager is a Jack or Jane of all trades and a master of none. You get so much exposure to the direct work we do as local government officials that when you go to a community out of state where that might be delegated or you have a staff that can handle that you can speak with exactitude about how you approached, the situation. - Dave Pribulka
📍 It's really hard to do big things in the Commonwealth. But a bunch of little things do lead to big things. And all of you are doing that in your communities. - Eden Ratliff
CONNECT
APMM - Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management
David Kratzer, Session Facilitator
Dave Pribulka, Guest
Eden Ratliff, Guest
Matt Candland, Guest
Nancy J Hess, Podcast Host
⏱️ Timeline of Key Topics
A moment of generational reckoning for the profession: “We are it.”
02:00–03:30 | The Fragmented Landscape of PA Government
Why regionalization is nearly impossible and progress starts from scratch.
03:30–05:00 | What’s the Role of Government Today?
Rethinking the function and purpose of municipal government.
05:00–07:00 | Structural Gridlock and the Union Mentality
How entrenched systems and union dynamics limit bold leadership.
07:00–10:00 | The Employment Contract Problem
The 2-year contract limit, job insecurity, and lack of manager protections.
10:00–12:30 | Who Advocates for Managers?
PML’s misalignment and APMM’s limited capacity for lobbying.
12:30–14:30 | Can We Attract Talent to PA?
Hard truths about why managers leave—and what other states do better.
14:30–17:00 | Should APMM Advocate?
A shift in perspective: neutrality vs. self-protection and representation.
17:00–19:30 | Advice for Exporting Your Career
Overcoming Pennsylvania’s “timid manager” syndrome when applying out-of-state.
19:30–23:30 | The Two-Year Contract in Practice
A cautionary tale and call for legislative reform.
23:30–26:30 | Brick Wall Politics & Systemic Inertia
Why the system works exactly as intended to suppress reform.
26:30–28:00 | Framing Reform in Terms of Money
Fiscal cliffs may do what logic hasn’t—prompt change.
28:00–30:00 | Final Question: How Do You Keep the Spark Alive?
Personal reflections on finding meaning in tough conditions.
